Attributes above 10

(Originally posted on MightyBell by Jens Johansen on 3/20/2017)

Hey guys

I was wondering what the dicepools would look like if the attributes could rise above 10. I’m not that good at mathing out a reasonable probability curve, nor predict what amount of dice that are needed, should an attribute rise from 10 to around 20.

I’d love your help in this hypothetical endeavor.

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Sam Wilby · March 20 at 4:29am · (original reply)
The idea of attributes above 10 has been brought up before, but Brian Feister said he wanted to keep the official skill cap at 10 and show more powerful characters with increasing advantage, so you may want to consider that instead.

From a purely hypothetical standing though:
11 = 4d10

12 = 4d12 (there are multiple ways to keep the progress in line with what happens at the lower levels, I’ve chosen to mostly keep to the larger dice because more dice reduces variance but larger dice increases it)

13 = 5d10

14 = 5d12 (at this point, the statistics start to REALLY break down)

15 = 6D10

16 = 6D12

17 = 7D12

18 = 9D10 (typing out the the progression from 7D12 to 9D10 is physically painful, but keeps the averages about right)

19 = 10D10

20 = 9D12 (yep, fewer dice because that’s the only way to keep progression even slightly linear)

Please, PLEASE do not use this system, it’s horrendous. I would instead start awarding increasing advantage beyond 10, like 11 is the equivalent of 10 with advantage 1. The advantage system is better, but still awful as it gives diminishing returns; especially if players are already getting advantage from feats.

Level 10 is the max level in this system for a reason, even if it seems like a small number it’s still the equivalent of level 20 in D&D (or more like 27, since each xp gives you a “level up”).

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Great Moustache · March 20 at 8:01am · (original reply)

yes, at most I’d only go up to maybe 4d10.

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What about an Attribute dice progression that makes each level’s max role (ignoring exploding for now) exactly 2 greater than the previous? Like this:

Level  1: 1d4           (max roll:  4, 1 die)
Level  2: 1d6           (max roll:  6, 1 die)
Level  3: 1d8           (max roll:  8, 1 die)
Level  4: 1d10          (max roll: 10, 1 die)
Level  5: 1d12          (max roll: 12, 1 die)
Level  6: 1d10+1d4      (max roll: 14, 2 dice)
Level  7: 1d12+1d4      (max roll: 16, 2 dice)
Level  8: 1d12+1d6      (max roll: 18, 2 dice)
Level  9: 1d12+1d8      (max roll: 20, 2 dice)
Level 10: 1d12+1d10     (max roll: 22, 2 dice)
Level 11: 2d12          (max roll: 24, 2 dice)
Level 12: 1d12+1d10+1d4 (max roll: 26, 3 dice)
Level 13: 2d12+1d4      (max roll: 28, 3 dice)
Level 14: 2d12+1d6      (max roll: 30, 3 dice)
Level 15: 2d12+1d8      (max roll: 32, 3 dice)
Level 16: 2d12+1d10     (max roll: 34, 3 dice)
Level 17: 3d12          (max roll: 36, 3 dice)
Level 18: 2d12+1d10+1d4 (max roll: 38, 4 dice)
Level 19: 3d12+1d4      (max roll: 40, 4 dice)
Level 20: 3d12+1d6      (max roll: 42, 4 dice)
Level 21: 3d12+1d8      (max roll: 44, 4 dice)
Level 22: 3d12+1d10     (max roll: 46, 4 dice)
Level 23: 4d12          (max roll: 48, 4 dice)
Level 24: 3d12+1d10+1d4 (max roll: 50, 5 dice)
Level 25: 4d12+1d4      (max roll: 52, 5 dice)
Level 26: 4d12+1d6      (max roll: 54, 5 dice)
Level 27: 4d12+1d8      (max roll: 56, 5 dice)
Level 28: 4d12+1d10     (max roll: 58, 5 dice)
Level 29: 5d12          (max roll: 60, 5 dice)

This can go on forever, but I think a pool of 10 dice is the limit before it becomes too unwieldy. (10d12 would be Attribute Level 59.) I have not tried playing this yet, but this seems to be viable to me.

That becomes really complicated. HOw many dice do I roll, vs, how many of this size, and that size, and that other size?

The max roll is not an ideal way to do it.

The averages are more important for “statistically” determining, and when you have dice of different size, it doesn’t create an equal curve.

I like the advantage idea, although diminishing returns does harsh things. But, still better than, say, a flat bonus or somesuch similar. Does open up a couple possibilities for multibane users as well when you can keep on climbing up, but not all too many.

Even treating Attributes over 10 as added advantage, would the effects with boons like Summon Creature, Teleport, and Genesis be of significance? More coexisting summons, further teleports without an extended invoke, more material synthesized in the same span of time. Also, it could open more possible combinations for Multibane, as well.

Couldn’t this situation arise in a game without house rules? If you have a character with might 9, martial focus on his forceful weapon, performing a bane attack which is favored by his weapon, he would use the attribute dice two levels higher than his might, which would be 11, or not?

Martial Focus raises the attribute dice by 1 and using a weapon to invoke a bane specific to that weapon, than you get advantage on that bane attack, so no by RAW there is no way to reach an attribute dice of 11 or higher.


What about heightened invocation tier 1 plus extraordinary focus?

The situation wouldn’t arise, b/c you would choose another option for Heightened Invocation. Especially at that level, you wouldn’t need higher dice, but especially since higher dice don’t exist.

4d8 is plenty on it, from playing close to… shesh… nearly 1000 sessions at this point, I can say it isn’t a concern. There’s even a group that does level 15 “games”, and those involve PvP even, and they haven’t ever been concerned with it or tried to make dice beyond that.