Haste, Focus Actions, And The Order Of Operations

In regards to an issue I have heard discussed elsewhere, some debate has arisen as to if one affected by Haste to such a degree as to gain extra Major Actions forfiets them when using Focus actions.

There are, to my understanding, two schoola of thought.

One, yes. Haste adds 2 Major Actions, giving a 3, and then the Focus Action multiplies the number of Major Actions by 0, leaving 0 Major Actions. (1+2)×0

Two, no. The Focus Action multiplies the one Major Action by 0, leaving 0 Major Actions, then Haste adds 2, leaving 2 Major Actions. 1×0+2. Alternatively, I heard one mention the possibility that Focus Actions are subtractive with Major Actions, subtracting 1, making order a nonissue. 1+2-1=1-1+2.

Although I have heard multiple perspectives regarding this, I bring it here to ask if there are any further perspectives, if anyone would like to give their own reasoning.

And, ultimately, if in service of the game at hand, GMs are free to reverse the ruling. I ask simply which you personally see as default and which as inverted, and preferably why.

3 Likes

Honestly, I had never even heard the thought that your hasted major action(s) go away, like ever, until the response in discord today.

The hasted is something you get from a boon, and I wouldn’t see any reason why you’d lose it on a focus action.

Naturally, you only get the Advantage 1 on the Focus Action, and it wouldn’t apply to the additional Hasted actions you get. That’s the point of the Focus Aciton, is that single focused action gains the benefit, it wouldn’t extend outside of that.

3 Likes

Yes, both sides seem in agreement on that. Seems only the order of operations that is in question, and I take it you are in the latter of the two camps. As for why it would be sacrificed, some say the Focus Action rules are the final thing applied, that the rules for Focus Actions say to forfiet all other non-Free actions, which they took as including ones gained by effects like Haste.

By raw it seems you would loss any extra actions.
“Using a focus action involves spending all of your energy and attention on one task. If you choose to forgo your major, move, and minor actions for a round, you may instead take a focus action.”
This is also true of the leading D20 system (or least as of 3.5 and pathfinder as I have not played newer versions.) If you got extra attacks from haste or other effects you lost them if you took a full round action.

1 Like

Oh, I fully understand why some people might come to that conclusion. What I’m saying is, this is the first time I’ve heard of people actually considering it. Every time that same question has ever come up before, the response has been “You still have your extra major actions from haste”.

I don’t really consider it an order of operations thing at all either. Order of operations matters for Heightened Invocation and Boon Focus II.

This is just a matter of how you define terms, etc.

However, the intent, I strongly believe, is that you maintain your extra major action(s). They exist completely outside of the Major Action in every other instance of consideration. It has different disadvantages for each one. You can choose whether you take it or not as well.

The only real reason for the “s” on action is b/c of minor.

3 Likes

So, for teleport PL7, you can long cast via the focus action. As stated “During invocation, you must spend a focus action each turn until the invocation time passes.” During this time are you saying it makes sense to use other actions while focusing on your casting? I believe the rule means all those actions, at less that is the way I read it.

2 Likes

Well that certainly is a new wrinkle here, isn’t it?
Focusing on an extended cast, yet being able to act too.

That’s a special case, and it’s a minute, not a focus action.

I don’t really see it changing anything from what was said above.

1 Like

“During invocation, you must spend a focus action each turn until the invocation time passes.” That is the difference. While measured in minutes, you need to expend focus actions while the minutes pass. Actions are one of the few resources that the game has, and higher teleports demand expendature of them.

Hoe is Teleport a special case, out of curiousity?

Because you have to spend a full minute… how is that not a special case?

Key here is minute, so it doesn’t matter if you have haste, b/c it isn’t 6 seconds or anything else, it’s multiple turns in a row. Whereas a focus action is just during a turn. A minute requires 10 turns.

It’s just like Heightened Invocation in that regard.

It’s a special case, b/c it is not something that a boon normally does on it’s own, so it is written directly into the boon for that special case of invoking it differently.

The reason it mentions focus action is so that you understand you can’t spend your time doing additional things while you are doing this special invocation of teleport. It’s rules words.

1 Like

To be a bit more clear, the difference is this:

A) Focus Action
B) Minute Invocation that then details during the minute of time, you have to be spending Focus actions

Why B mentions focus actions, to make it clear that during that minute of time, you can’t be doing other things.

Compare this to Craft Extraordinary Items. You have to spend at least 8 hours of time and up to 9 months. However, during that time, you can do a few other things, like eat and sleep.

1 Like

Except, why would it not be bidirectional? If Teleport Focus Actions consumes Haste Actions, why wouldn’t non-Teleport Focus Actions? Why would the reaon behind the Focus Action, Teleport or non-Teleport, be a factor? While yes, it is special for a boon to make you expend Focus Actions, that is a level higher than the actual Focus Actions. It is special for the boon, yes, but not neccessarily for Focus Actions. Teleport could also have said “you cannot perform other actions during this invocation”, which implies that Focus Action standard rules are important to account for here. In short, I do not see why the minutes invoke measure is of relevance to whether or not Haste Actions are consumed. Even taking as given that it is special, it is for the Teleport Boon it is special. It can certainly be argued that Teleport even mentioning Haste Actions means that it has to be the same, lest they would not have been mentioned.

Each Focus Action is spent alone, so on the level Haste functions on, the turn, there is little reason to discriminate between a Focus Action for one whole action and a Focus Action for a tenth of an action.

All of that said, this adds the possibility that Teleport might not consume Haste Actions, and while I don’t have an argument for that, I would be very interested to hear if anybody has one.

It doesn’t… that’s what I’ve been saying above.

Teleport in question is not a focus action. It is a minute invocation. The Focus action mentioned in taking a minute invocation does not consume the haste actions, the minute part of it does.

1 Like

Why would the minute part consume? For what reason is the minute relevant to Haste action consumption? I see no connection or relation between the two.

Ok. here are the “Actions” broken down:

Free
Minor
Move
Major
Focus
Minute
10 Minute
1 Hour
8 Hours


You are confusing a clarifying statement within the Minute action as 10 actions. This isn’t the case. It is a single action that is spread across 1 minute of time.

When you want to teleport farther, it isn’t you are taking 10 focus actions, it is that you are taking a Minute Invocation action.

1 Like

So it is a semantic issue then, you are saying? It seems odd that focus actions would be used for such clarification, including considering that the statement of “you cannot perform other actions during this invocation” could have done so as well.

However, if it is simply a misparsed clarification, rather than a rule dependant upon the actual function of the Focus Actions, then that would be grounds for Teleport to consume Haste Actions in the sense that they would not be granted to begin with, despite a Focus Action not doing so all on it’s own.

Yes, it’s good to remember that things were edited rather quickly at the end, and wording is never perfect. This is technically the 1st edition of the rules as well.

This part of the teleport boon is essentially allowing you to do Heightened Invocation without the feat, however instead of increasing the range you can invoke it at, it is increasing the range of the effect.

It was never messed with the wording, as the wording seemed clear enough at the time and had no questions then.

1 Like

Ah, noted then. And I also wish to thank everyone who participated in this discussion for their calm and friendly contributions and considerations regarding this issue. I feel it is very good that this discussion was had.

1 Like